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Post subject: Re: Unraveling the story *SPOILERS*
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:10 am 
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https://ejje.weblio.jp/content/和氏の璧

EDIT: There's this too https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_Shi_Bi
But I wouldn't take the liberty of ignoring that の particle. I'd assume the first definition correct unless something seems really funny about it in context.


The Devil takes notes from Lina Inverse? That sounds about right.

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Post subject: Re: Unraveling the story *SPOILERS*
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:17 am 
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Filler's 100% right, it's He Shi Bi. See the wikipedia filler posted for "returning jade intact to zhao" part for the whole context of the story...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_Shi_Bi#%22Returning_the_Jade_Intact_to_Zhao%22

Qin is willing (they are bluffing) to give Zhao 15 castles (or cities but I think he calls them castles in this game) in exchange for the He Shi Bi jade. The city is Xianyang, not zianyang. Note that Pingyuan mentions something about Luoyang by the end of the scene. There's a new merc you have to go try recruit there first, to be able to enter Hangu Pass.

Open the merc screen at Luoyang bar, try to recruit him and he refuses... I don't remember if you had to talk to other npcs there too. Then go outside and there's a scene with him. Then you can continue to Hangu pass.

Btw, a straight machine translation of this scene is funny. Without context there isn't much to understand beyond a complete mess:
Spoiler! :
KING HUIWEN
Ohara, you.
It is serious.
LORD PINGYUAN
can i help you.
KING HUIWEN
From the great country · play, Mr. Horie of Mr. Takarazu of Japan is a famous bead (a hammerhead).
They said they wanted to change Castle Town Gallery.
LORD PINGYUAN
Probably Wanna Let's take up just the name ball and the castle is going to end.
But do not worry.
People who are here will surely do something with the brave who has both wisdom and power.
LIN
Do not make a decision on your own.
It's convenient here too.
Hey, HERO.
I owe you some things I want to do.
HERO
I owe you some things I would like to do something
What can we do with our power.
LORD PINGYUAN
No, you guys are safe to go.
I will ask you.
JING
But here Say is the son of the prince of play.
If you bring it, it will be troublesome.
LORD PINGYUAN
Then I will keep it here for a while.
KING HUIWEN
Ask HERO and Yarou too.
The other party is looking for an excuse for war.
It is not bad that you will be taken away from the harmony of sum that you say and say. Will you take over?
HERO
What to do, Kei.
JING
You will not be disheartened by this way.
Lend me the phosphorus power.
LIN
It can not be helped.
Would you like to do it again like this?
HERO
I have something good.
JING
Do not think about Petten again.
LIN
Well let me know.
KING HUIWEN
Was saved.
Then Sei will keep it carefully.
(MESSAGE)
* Sei came out from the party.
KING HUIWEN
This is Mr. War's perfection.
You will need a taxi ticket as well.
(MESSAGE)
* I received the Mr. War's Poor.
* I got a taxi ticket.
LORD PINGYUAN
Then you will have to do it.
Miyako Miyako (Shinno Miyoko) of the performance was in the West
It is located beyond Hakodanishin (Kankoku-kan).
Huashan is close by as well.
It seems that a good customer who can not be seen as Luoyang recently changes his face.
Although I do not know much about my arms, it would be nice to ask someone.

KING HUIWEN
Mr. Watanabe is an important treasure of our country.
I do not want to be taken by musical performances.

LORD PINGYUAN
Take a taxi ticket to Luoyang and then go straight to the west to the west.

ZHENG
Please come back safely.


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Post subject: Re: Unraveling the story *SPOILERS*
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:11 am 
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hausen wrote:
Filler's 100% right, it's He Shi Bi. See the wikipedia filler posted for "returning jade intact to zhao" part for the whole context of the story...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_Shi_Bi#%22Returning_the_Jade_Intact_to_Zhao%22

Qin is willing (they are bluffing) to give Zhao 15 castles (or cities but I think he calls them castles in this game) in exchange for the He Shi Bi jade. The city is Xianyang, not zianyang. Note that Pingyuan mentions something about Luoyang by the end of the scene. There's a new merc you have to go try recruit there first, to be able to enter Hangu Pass.

Open the merc screen at Luoyang bar, try to recruit him and he refuses... I don't remember if you had to talk to other npcs there too. Then go outside and there's a scene with him. Then you can continue to Hangu pass.

Btw, a straight machine translation of this scene is funny. Without context there isn't much to understand beyond a complete mess:
Spoiler! :
KING HUIWEN
Ohara, you.
It is serious.
LORD PINGYUAN
can i help you.
KING HUIWEN
From the great country · play, Mr. Horie of Mr. Takarazu of Japan is a famous bead (a hammerhead).
They said they wanted to change Castle Town Gallery.
LORD PINGYUAN
Probably Wanna Let's take up just the name ball and the castle is going to end.
But do not worry.
People who are here will surely do something with the brave who has both wisdom and power.
LIN
Do not make a decision on your own.
It's convenient here too.
Hey, HERO.
I owe you some things I want to do.
HERO
I owe you some things I would like to do something
What can we do with our power.
LORD PINGYUAN
No, you guys are safe to go.
I will ask you.
JING
But here Say is the son of the prince of play.
If you bring it, it will be troublesome.
LORD PINGYUAN
Then I will keep it here for a while.
KING HUIWEN
Ask HERO and Yarou too.
The other party is looking for an excuse for war.
It is not bad that you will be taken away from the harmony of sum that you say and say. Will you take over?
HERO
What to do, Kei.
JING
You will not be disheartened by this way.
Lend me the phosphorus power.
LIN
It can not be helped.
Would you like to do it again like this?
HERO
I have something good.
JING
Do not think about Petten again.
LIN
Well let me know.
KING HUIWEN
Was saved.
Then Sei will keep it carefully.
(MESSAGE)
* Sei came out from the party.
KING HUIWEN
This is Mr. War's perfection.
You will need a taxi ticket as well.
(MESSAGE)
* I received the Mr. War's Poor.
* I got a taxi ticket.
LORD PINGYUAN
Then you will have to do it.
Miyako Miyako (Shinno Miyoko) of the performance was in the West
It is located beyond Hakodanishin (Kankoku-kan).
Huashan is close by as well.
It seems that a good customer who can not be seen as Luoyang recently changes his face.
Although I do not know much about my arms, it would be nice to ask someone.

KING HUIWEN
Mr. Watanabe is an important treasure of our country.
I do not want to be taken by musical performances.

LORD PINGYUAN
Take a taxi ticket to Luoyang and then go straight to the west to the west.

ZHENG
Please come back safely.
Thanks filler and hausen! Woke up in the night, still tangled up in this thing. Wish I had found that wiki! I did find images of Jade Disks (seals). Yep the machine... just a starting point. Then, I use about eight different tricks/methods to refine it all down to making sense. When those don't work, I ask y'all. That 5% I miss is a killer! It's just like the work I did in the military for 25 years - dig truth, theories, and estimates out of bits and pieces, put it all together in a logical sequence, and convince a commanding officer that I know 'whut ah'm talkin' 'bout'!

The ancient Chinese... tons of cultural anecdotes and symbolism wrapped in conflicting opinions, but men of action stumble onward, and someone wins! Okay, here's the scene as currently written, for everyone's perusal...

Spoiler! :
.POINTER = $100398
; Offset: $11245E

; 趙王 :おお平原君。大変だ。[key]
; 平原君:いかがなさいましたか[key]
; 趙王 :大国・秦から我国の宝
;  和氏の壁(かしのへき)
;  の名玉と[key]
;  城十五城を交換したいと
;  言ってきたのだ。[key]
; 平原君:おそらくワナでしょう
;  名玉だけを取り上げておいて
;  城はよこさぬつもりでしょう[key]
;  しかしご心配はいりませぬ。
;  ここにおられる方々は 知恵
;  も力も兼ね備えた勇者ばかり[key]
;  きっと何とかしてくれますぞ[key]
; リン :おいおい
;  勝手に決めるなよ。[key]
;  こっちにも都合があるんだ。
;  なあ[name$DDDD]。[key]
; [name$DDDD]:あなたには
;  借りもあるし
;  何とかしてあげたいが[key] 
;  私達の力で何が出来るのやら[key]
; 平原君:いや 君達が
;  行ってくれれば安心だ。
;  たのむよ。[key]
; ケイカ:しかしここにいるセイ
;  は 秦の皇太子の息子だ。[key]
;  連れて行くと
;  面倒な事になるぞ。[key]
; 平原君:それならしばらくの間
;  ここで私が預かっておこう。[key]
; 趙王 :[name$DDDD]殿とやら
;  わしからも頼む。[key]
;  相手は戦争の口実を
;  さがしておるのじゃ。[key]
;  と言ってみすみす和氏の壁を
;  取られてしまうのもいやじゃ
;  引き受けてくれんか。[key]
; [name$DDDD]:どうしよう ケイカ。[key]
; ケイカ:こうまでたのまれては
;  ことわれんでしょう。リン
;  力を貸してやってくれよ。[key]
; リン :しようがないな。
;  この間みたいに 
;  又やってみるか[key]
; [name$DDDD]:何かいい考えがあるの[key]
; ケイカ:又ペテンを考えてるな[key]
; リン :まあまかせておけって[key]
; 平原君:助かった。それでは
;  セイ君は大切に預かるよ。
; ★セイがパ一ティ一からぬけた[key]
; 平原君:これが和氏の壁だ。
;  タクシ一チケットも必要
;  だろう。[key]
; ★和氏の壁を受け取った。
; ★タクシ一チケットをもらった
King Zhao: Oh, Pingyuan...
It's very serious!
Pingyuan: We came quickly.
King Zhao: The powerful Qin
Kingdom covets our national
treasure, the Jade Disk!
In exchange, Qin will swap
fifteen of their castles.
I'm unsure of what to do!
Pingyuan: It could be a trap.
Meanwhile, negotiations may
be a way to delay this deal.
So, don't worry. I have wise,
strong people with me who
are skilled in combat, too!
If they will assist us, surely
we can work this out.
Lin: Yes, don't face it alone.
Lin: This is convenient for us,
too. Right, [name$DDDD]?
[name$DDDD]: It would seem...
We'll soon be heading in the
direction of Qin, using our
power to promote peace.
Pingyuan: Danger could arise,
but someone must go. We don't
have anyone else to dispatch.
Jing: Well, there you are!
So, what are we waiting for?
Let's get started!
Jing: We've handled plenty of
trouble before.
Pingyuan: Then, that settles it!
King Zhao: But bear in mind
that Qin may be looking for
a pretext to start a war.
Also, I don't know how you
will penetrate Hangu Pass.
Ask in Luoyang, maybe?
[name$DDDD]: Jing, how do you
suggest we convince the
checkpoint guards?
Jing: I don't know, but Lin...
I'm sure you have the power
and brains to solve this!
Lin: I don't have a magic
solution either, but I'll
deal with the Jade Disc!
[name$DDDD]: Come on, everyone!
One of you please hatch a
plan!
Jing: Must it be ground level?
Are any other ways possible?
Lin: Okay, leave it to me.
Pingyuan: Ah, you've saved me!
Thank you! No matter how you
manage everything, stay safe!
Zheng left the group,
returning to his previous
hostage status in Zhao.
Pingyuan: Okay, take these!
[key]You received Jade Disk.
[key]You received Taxi Ticket.[end-4]


.POINTER = $10039A
; Offset: $112A16

; 平原君:それじゃたのんだぞ。
;  秦の都・咸陽(しんのみやこ
;  かんよう)は 西のはずれの[key]
;  函谷関(かんこくかん)を
;  越したところにある。
;  華山もすぐ近くだ。[key]
;  話はかわるが 近ごろ洛陽に
;  見なれない食客が
;  顔をだしているらしい。[key]
;  腕のほどは知らんが
;  ついでに
;  たずねてみるとよいだろう。
Pingyuan: Xianyang, capital
of the Qin Kingdom lies on
our far western fringes.
After you find your way
through Hangu Pass, Mt.
Huashan will be close!
An odd woman visited Luoyang
recently, as do many out of
work retainers.
As the king said, that's a
good starting point for the
next part of your journey![end-4]


.POINTER = $10039C
; Offset: $112B4C

; 趙王 :和氏の壁は
;  我国の大切な宝じゃ。
;  秦なぞに取られたくないぞ。
King Zhao: The Jade Disk is
our precious treasure. Don't
let the Qin King deceive us![end-4]


.POINTER = $10039E
; Offset: $112B96

; 平原君:タクシ一チケットで
;  洛陽まで行けば あとは
;  西へ西へとまっすぐだ。
Pingyuan: Use your Taxi
Ticket to zip to Luoyang!
Then, walk all the way west.[end-4]

.POINTER = $1007B6
; Offset: $126A64

; セイ :ご無事でお帰り下さい
Crown Prince Zhang: Thanks,
Uncle! Stay safe![end-4]


As usual, cramped space in the ROM is really killin' the story-tellin' potential in this game!! What a helluva note! This is authentic historical fiction, as good as the John Jakes series in America, and it's non-expandable!

And this scene make a lot more sense when viewed with the visuals and knowing the whole backdrop of the tale.


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Post subject: Re: Unraveling the story *SPOILERS*
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:16 pm 
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BTW: Wildbill don't forget you have to account for WWWWWW when writing these scenes just like the other games with namable characters. Keep that in mind. You've got WildBi and WWWWWW is a lot longer in the window so you need to keep that in mind.


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Post subject: Re: Unraveling the story *SPOILERS*
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:20 pm 
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Glad to help and see that you're enjoying the game too.

Let me add a tiny pedantic thing: "King Zhao" would infer that the king's personal name is Zhao, doesn't it? You should use 'Zhao King' perhaps to signify he's the king of that state? His actual name is King Huiwen, at the time these events with the jade disc happened in real history, just to add for curiosity's sake. I'm not an English native speaker, by the way, sometimes I might lose sight of nuance in wordings like these.

(+tiny typo at Zheng's line at the very end - Zhang should be Zheng.)


Hehe, I keep finding small new things every now and then. You already went past the small one-screen fire cave near Shouchun, right? Did you know that if you have the boozehound 李酒 merc in your party when fighting the boss there, at start of battle they share a drink together and the boss becomes wasted - doesn't call those helpers in battle like he usually does and keeps missing his sword swings. Lol.

With the mirror 'brother' fights, you're given a prompt to use a quest item gained previously when you fight the second one. It immobilizes him in fear. If you answer yes to a prompt to use a quest item in the 3rd boss fight, he becomes enraged and stronger than normally. I wonder if any other bosses have extras like these.


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Post subject: Re: Unraveling the story *SPOILERS*
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:55 pm 
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hausen wrote:
Glad to help and see that you're enjoying the game too.

Let me add a tiny pedantic thing: "King Zhao" would infer that the king's personal name is Zhao, doesn't it? You should use 'Zhao King' perhaps to signify he's the king of that state? His actual name is King Huiwen, at the time these events with the jade disc happened in real history, just to add for curiosity's sake. I'm not an English native speaker, by the way, sometimes I might lose sight of nuance in wordings like these.

(+tiny typo at Zheng's line at the very end - Zhang should be Zheng.)


Hehe, I keep finding small new things every now and then. You already went past the small one-screen fire cave near Shouchun, right? Did you know that if you have the boozehound 李酒 merc in your party when fighting the boss there, at start of battle they share a drink together and the boss becomes wasted - doesn't call those helpers in battle like he usually does and keeps missing his sword swings. Lol.

With the mirror 'brother' fights, you're given a prompt to use a quest item gained previously when you fight the second one. It immobilizes him in fear. If you answer yes to a prompt to use a quest item in the 3rd boss fight, he becomes enraged and stronger than normally. I wonder if any other bosses have extras like these.
I'm inclined to change him to King Huiwen throughout, unless you prefer Zhao King.

I did note the item effect on the mirror bosses. Is there a way to get the "fire" treasures without burning up and staying invisible most of the time when you go down to meet Sun Tzu?

When I localize a game story, I always try to keep the "flavor" and unique culture of the actual setting.

Okay, got another to throw your way. This is minuscule, compared to a dynastic treasure, and I'm getting much close to it. What does the definition of 古文書 Ancient Script/Document/Scroll mean?

Spoiler! :
.POINTER = $100988
; Offset: $127416

; 九十九のとびらあり
; 里の上に立つものあけよ[key]
; 白き水に北の月をうつせ
You will see ninety-nine
doors above the village.
Promise your good name!
Post northern moon to white
water, and your path shall
open![end-4]

; .POINTER = $100450
; Offset: $1145D2

; ★古文書をひらいた。[key]
;  〔九十九のとびらあり。
;  里の上に立つものあけよ〕
You opened the Old Document.
Ninety-nine doors exist. To
open, stand on the village.[end-4]


.POINTER = $100384
; Offset: $111E72

; ★古文書をわたした。
; 春申君:これだ これだ。
;  さっそく見てみよう。[key]
; ★みんなで古文書を見た。
;  それにはこう書いてあった。[key]
; ◎ここに名刀あり。
;  名をダマスカスの剣という。[key]
;  これを手に入れし者は
;  天下をも手に入れるなり。[key]
;  今 この剣を華山に隠す。
;  最後の扉を開ける3枚の魔鏡
;   恒山 泰山 嵩山に有り。[key]
;  魔鏡を全て手に入れて 
;  華山へ登れ。[key]
;  〔九十九のとびらあり
;   里の上に立つものあけよ〕[key]
;  〔白き水に北の月をうつせ〕[key]
;  心正しき者
;  勇気ある者
;  知恵ある者よ。[key]
;  この剣を手に入れし者よ。
;  その力を
;  平和のために使う事を誓え。
We handed over the Ancient
Script.
Chungshen: YES...! This is it!!
The official read the Ancient
Script. "This is the history of
the famed 'Damascus Sword'.
He who possesses my blade
will find a key to unlocking
the heavens.
I secured the Damascus Sword
at Mt. Huashan. Three mirrors
will open the final door.
Strong foes are guarding the
mirrors at Mt. Hengshan, Mt.
Taishan, and Mt. Songshan.
Once you take possession
of the mirrors, climb Mt.
Huashan.
Look for ninety-nine doors
above the village, and post
north moon to white water.
Take heart, courageous one!
Use your wisdom to prevail
in this quest!
The man who gains this sword
will wield tremendous power.
Swear to use it for peace!"[end-4]



.POINTER = $100388
; Offset: $1120F0

; 春申君:ダマスカスの剣か・・
;  しかしこの暗号のような言葉
;  はどんな意昧なんだ。[key]
;  〔九十九のとびらあり
;   里の上に立つものあけよ〕[key]
;  もう一つある。
;  〔白き水に北の月をうつせ〕
;  これじゃ何の事かわからん。[key]
; 平原君:その謎は[name$DDDD]に
;  解いてもらおう。[key]
;  私達の力では3枚の魔鏡さえ
;  手に入れる事が
;  出来なかったのだ。[key]
;  君こそ この剣を持つのに
;  ふさわしい人物だ。
Chungshen: I understand the
power of the Damascus Sword,
but... those cryptic words...
What is the meaning of "ninety-
nine doors that stand above
the village"?
And that part about "Post
north moon to white water..."
I don't understand!
Pingyuan: It means that it
falls to [name$DDDD] to solve
these mysteries!
Without those three magic
mirrors, none of us stood
a chance of success.
Furthermore, gaining the
sword will prove [name$DDDD]'s
worthiness to possess it![end-4]


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Post subject: Re: Unraveling the story *SPOILERS*
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:45 pm 
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taskforce wrote:
BTW: Wildbill don't forget you have to account for WWWWWW when writing these scenes just like the other games with namable characters. Keep that in mind. You've got WildBi and WWWWWW is a lot longer in the window so you need to keep that in mind.
Didin't you and Bongo` already fix that with letter W narrowing and ASM spacing?


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Post subject: Re: Unraveling the story *SPOILERS*
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:48 pm 
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King Huiwen is certainly good if the longer length isn't an issue.

Eh, I guess that's the gimmick of that annoying dungeon and the invisibility effect can't be avoided. Hit a stealth spell, count yer steps and collect all you wish. You can avoid hitting the fire if you keep track where you are ofc. Most chests had good useful healing items so it's not all a waste.


So... the ancient book/script riddles. Oh hell. This is a tough one. Some of my musings below but I'm far from 100% here.
Spoiler! :
One of the phrases I understand. "One door of ninety-nine" part or however you phrase it. Take the kanji 百 (one hundred). Subtract one (一) from 100, you get 白 (white). So the correct door is the white door. Cool riddle, but have fun translating this to make sense from an English audience's perspective!

The second one is something about head of village or something. The answer is "child" but I don't understand it. So these two phrases combine and to proceed, have Bean Sage (a child) as head of your party and pass thru the white door.

Third one, "Post northern moon to white water, and your path shall open!" I'm unclear on this too. In the room with the red lake and chest, face the chest from south facing up, and a bridge appears.

EDIT: Oh hey, the second phrase works the same way! 里 (village). 立 (standing on smth) equals 童 (a child). That's a neat puzzle indeed!


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Post subject: Re: Unraveling the story *SPOILERS*
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:28 pm 
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Not if you aren't using WWWWWW for your name, it is still the longest possible name and you must account for it while writing. It is fixed in menus and such, but anytime you're displaying your name in text you must account for WWWWWW. Just as Aretha or any other game with changeable character names. You should really always name your character WWWWWW when writing any game with a changeable name. So, I would really suggest you start over and name your character WWWWWW while you work on this game (and any new games you do where you name your guy.)


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Post subject: Re: Unraveling the story *SPOILERS*
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:12 am 
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taskforce wrote:
So, I would really suggest you start over and name your character WWWWWW while you work on this game (and any new games you do where you name your guy.)


This will save you so many headaches down the road. Trust me.


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