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Post subject: Profanity in Aretha-II
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:47 am 
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I don't have a problem with mild profanity, but we need to make a decision about a matter that's similar to what Ritchie is reading into some of the Burning Heroes dialogue, regarding one of the eight primary characters, a street brawler named Gaou. (Recca and I discussed that one last year and decided to tone it down.)

Now, at least four translators have worked on A-II, even though filler did most of it - primarily the mid and latter parts. Therefore, filler's thoughts will be a major guiding principle, although I welcome input and discussion from anyone.

Point is, the character, Doole, is quite aggressive and profane. But one of the four translators used the eff word several times in Doole's comments. Although I can see that happening in "real life" by a certain class of people, I don't find it appropriate for one of our projects. Also, Doole has used the ess word several times, per whichever translator read that into the original Japanese. Meanwhile, I have used euphemistic words such as "crap" to get around this "problem" in my first formatted draft. Quite frankly, I don't want to have my name associated with a project that breaks the eff word taboo in quality RPGs for what I believe might be the first time. If anyone is obsessed with hearing that word over and over for "entertainment" purposes, I figure they can pass us by and resort to hundreds of "crappy" movies, hee-hee...

Just for the record, I have used words such as bitches, crap, hell, damn, and dammit for Doole thus far. Ariel is always a lady, and Todd seems to be a gentleman, but Doole frequently brandishes a burning anger to avenge his friend, Carl, so he is prone to rant in that manner.

The game has far to go, so let's discuss and resolve this profanity issue early on.


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Post subject: Re: Profanity in Aretha-II
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:34 am 
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Although I'm not "anti-profanity", I do feel that there are usually more creative ways to express that a character is an ass.


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Post subject: Re: Profanity in Aretha-II
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:10 am 
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I think you know my stance on this. It depends on the game somewhat, but even in the case of a game made for mature/adult audiences, I think the tasteful use of, or lack of, profanity is much preferred. The "nice-guy" main character in WtPC would say "What the hell?" now and then, but I kept the language quite clean in that game despite it's 18+ audience. However, had there been some colorful characters and a gritty tone, it may have made sense to go for some coarser language.

I'm not accusing you of non-tasteful use of profanity WB and I think you always consider carefully the tone of the scene and the emotion of your characters.
If you have a particular direction you want to go with Doole and you want to try him out with some stronger language I don't see why you can't try to make a case for it. I'd probably require some convincing however, and as a rule my preference would be for sticking to euphemisms and keeping it at an all-ages level.


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Post subject: Re: Profanity in Aretha-II
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:31 am 
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filler wrote:
I think you know my stance on this. It depends on the game somewhat, but even in the case of a game made for mature/adult audiences, I think the tasteful use of profanity is much preferred. The "nice-guy" main character in WtPC would say "What the hell?" now and then, but I kept the language quite clean in that game despite it's 18+ audience. However, had there been some colorful characters and a gritty tone, it may have made sense to go for some coarser language.

I'm not accusing you of non-tasteful use of profanity WB and I think you always consider carefully the tone of the scene and the emotion of your characters.
If you have a particular direction you want to go with Doole and you want to try him out with some stronger language I don't see why you can't try to make a case for it. I'd probably require some convincing however, and as a rule my preference would be for sticking to euphemisms and keeping it at an all-ages level.
Hee-hee, yep, I recall when I toned down the term, "asshole", in Slayers. At any rate, with Gaou, in the recent BH blocks from Ritchie, I had him call a particularly odious adversary "a fornication-faced so-and-so, etc...!" It's almost a parody or spoof when expressed this way. If this flies through Recca and Red Soul, maybe... We'll see... Anyway, back to Chaos Seed now. Geeze, must be 500 townspeople in the Doutenpuku town scene alternative ending with several multiple menu responses for some of them. To think that many people will choose different options in the cave and not even see that scene astounds me! Anyhoo, one girl in Douten has a spell that whirls me in a circle, then has 500 bugs swirling around my head everywhere I go from then on! So, aggravating, for a moment I won't to change my lifelong rule about not hitting women! For complexity, Douten Town reminds me of the Gloucester complex in Lennus-II! Well, not quite...


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Post subject: Re: Profanity in Aretha-II
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:32 am 
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I believe toning down is fine, the wrong stance here would be, in my opinion, to completely strip this trait from Drole (or any character for that matter) as that would imply a reinterpretation of our own on said character's mannerisms, rather than an approximation of what the original script writers intended.

That said no character needs to go out machine-gunning f-words to convey that, there are plenty of ways to polish even curse words without them losing meaning or impact, its not cussing or the lack of thereof that makes characters more or less truthful.


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Post subject: Re: Profanity in Aretha-II
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:00 am 
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Millrose is like this in Rejoice. She's extraordinarly snarky, especially when she first meets people - she has a very high opinion of herself, and a resultingly low opinion of pretty much everyone else:

So who the hell are you?<WAIT><LINE>
You must be pretty pathetic, in<LINE>
more than one way, to let the<LINE>
Demon Lord's cronies get you.<WAIT>

What, they SAVED you?<LINE><WAIT>
As if! Next thing you'll be<LINE>
telling me is that these<LINE>
bars are made of chocolate!<WAIT>
(Prison cell bars. The double meaning here is intentional though!)

Aw, put a sock in it.<LINE>
I LIKE it here!<WAIT>

Oh, so NOW you notice me. Dolt.<WAIT><LINE>
Here I sat, half-hoping that some<LINE>
miracle had arrived, but go figure,<LINE>
it's just a couple of losers.<WAIT>
Can you be any more incompetent?<WAIT>

Point is, you don't need to swear to get an abrasive personality across. And if you *do* choose to use a swear on the rare occasion, it hits the reader that much stronger for its prior lack of use. You'll actually notice this in a fair few Monty Python sketches - crude as they can be, they almost never outright swear, and when they do it's to great effect.


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Post subject: Re: Profanity in Aretha-II
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:33 am 
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From what I had time to play to this point today. The game does not have the tone of a game which would include a lot of swearing at this point. When I get caught up, I can give my full opinion, but at this point, I'd have to say to absolutely cut swearing to VERY occasional use when absolutely necessary. And when is it ever absolutely necessary :P It can be appropriate though, just haven't seen it needs to be here so far.


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Post subject: Re: Profanity in Aretha-II
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:08 pm 
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Gideon Zhi wrote:
Millrose is like this in Rejoice. She's extraordinarly snarky, especially when she first meets people - she has a very high opinion of herself, and a resultingly low opinion of pretty much everyone else:

...

Aw, put a sock in it.<LINE>
I LIKE it here!<WAIT>

...

Point is, you don't need to swear to get an abrasive personality across. And if you *do* choose to use a swear on the rare occasion, it hits the reader that much stronger for its prior lack of use. You'll actually notice this in a fair few Monty Python sketches - crude as they can be, they almost never outright swear, and when they do it's to great effect.
Based on what filler said, I assume one of the other translators read the eff and ess words in Doole's Consult block.

Heh, Gid, that "sock" line in Rejoice cracks me up! Iris, the "mad dog" sadistic female companion of Mevius in Burning Heroes, uses that exact phraseology so often, it's become a central metaphor in their scenario.

Well, all of the eff and ess words in the raw translation get cleaned up. I'm happy to see that everyone agrees a better game may be crafted without them.

I'm also thinking this line from Doole's Consult block should be converted.

From this:

.TEXT
[LOADPIC-LFT$0700A0][CLRS][HIDE][PINK][Name$07]:[WHITE][SHOW] Would it be helpful to ask
the townsfolk?[KEYP]
[CLRS][LOADPIC-LFT$0C02A0][HIDE][PINK][Name$02]:[WHITE][SHOW] Hell, no! These town clown
bitches are all ruled by [Name$09]!![KEYP]
They won't tell us crap!!
.ENDT

To this:

.TEXT
[LOADPIC-LFT$0700A0][CLRS][HIDE][PINK][Name$07]:[WHITE][SHOW] Would it be helpful to ask
the townsfolk?[KEYP]
[CLRS][LOADPIC-LFT$0C02A0][HIDE][PINK][Name$02]:[WHITE][SHOW] Hell, no! These town clown
flunkies are all ruled by [Name$09]!![KEYP]
They won't tell us crap!!
.ENDT

Heh, "crap" I already swapped for the ess word in the raw.

[Name$07] = Todd
[Name$02] = Doole
[Name$09] = (alleged Demon King) Akin

Note: Name codes are used because the game has a name-changing feature that may be used for all of the major players, not just the heroine.


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Post subject: Re: Profanity in Aretha-II
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:58 pm 
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How 'bout morons or losers instead of flunkies? Just a thought. Flunkies sounds too much like true henchmen.


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Post subject: Re: Profanity in Aretha-II
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:08 pm 
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taskforce wrote:
How 'bout morons or losers instead of flunkies? Just a thought. Flunkies sounds too much like true henchmen.
Yeah, I just threw that word in there off the top of my head this morning because I didn't like the term "bitches" to begin with, even in a dual-gender usage. I'm sure that between us we'll find the best noun that sounds Doole-ish. Plus, Gura Town is split just about evenly between reverence for King Akin and aggravation over the fact that his soldiers have made travel across the three bridges all but impossible. Geeze, I wish Bongo` would fix the Akin bug so we can move forward after I pass Chaos Seed back to Drakee, hopefully by tonight!

I also need to get some Burning Heroes materials to Red Soul today. (I haven't forgotten ya!)


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